As you know, Untangle is in the business of providing great, easy-to-use software apps to small business – often for free.
And what’s the #1 “killer app” of small business? Email! And many small businesses want to run their own infrastructures – they just aren’t ready for the cloud.
So we are very motivated to provide our users with capable, and ideally free and open, email tools. We eat our own dogfood (our internal Untangle Server is called “dogfood”!), so we’d use it too.
Yet Untangle is moving back to Exchange for internal use, and we have so far stayed away from offering email and calendaring software to our users. Indeed, we have no Exchange/Outlook competitor on the shelves of our web store.
Why is that?
Mainly because finding a simple, affordable solution has been too damn hard – especially if you want to stick with open source (we do)! After decades of effort trying to imitate or better Exchange/Outlook, our industry continues to fall short of the mark.
To see why, lets start with the requirements….
Here’s what’s needed for a competitive email/collaboration app:
In the free/open-source world, pickings are slim on the mail side. The options range from imapd to Panda to Dovecot. All are decent tools, but they are mainly standalone and lack enough integration to meet our spec.
Moving to calendaring, relevant open-source projects even tougher to find. There’s basically PHProjekt and its variants. And we’re not the only folks having trouble finding solutions, as evidenced by this post on Hanno’s Blog.
So far, all point products. Focusing now on integrated collaboration tools, we find offerings from Zimbra, IP Brick, and Unison. But closer inspection shows that the latter two are neither open nor free.
So the package that comes closest to meeting the requirements is Zimbra Open Source Edition. But to hit all specs, you must buy their commercial package. Expensive, but less so than Exchange. So Untangle purchased Zimbra Professional, and we contemplated offering Zimbra to our customers.
But there’s been one not-so-small problem with our Zimbra installation. Since about the time of the Yahoo! acquisition, we have noticed more and more things break. This is especially true around their connectors, which are key to their interoperability. Untangle’s business runs on Salesforce, and the majority of our client machines are Unix-based (Linux and Mac OS X). The connectors are key for us!
So after looking at all the alternatives that I mentioned above, we are (sadly and reluctantly) moving to MS Exchange.
Meanwhile, we are analyzing how we can develop our own open, free, and integrated solution…stay tuned!
28 Responses on Why are email and calendaring so hard?
It is good that yall are pursuing an open source e-mail server/client solution. I wish yall the best of luck in that endeavor.
Sometimes the 800lb gorilla that is Microsoft comes out on top. But with time all things can change (compare Macintosh [Apple] to what it was 5, 10, 15 years ago).
I sympathize with your problem, but I think you are missing the forest for the trees a bit here. If SalesForce is the killer app getting in your way, then get rid of SalesForce! At my previous job, we used SalesForce, but ultimately found it limiting and overly expensive. We replaced it with Sugar CRM, and it went very very well. Everyone who used to use SalesForce wonders why we didn’t switch sooner. Also, that place was an Exchange shop, and the “Integration” between SF and Exch often seemed to be more trouble than it was worth for us. Interestingly, at my current employer, we don’t use Salesforce, but we do use Zimbra, and I can imagine how the two would work very well together. I think I’ve even seen some “official” integration plugins for one or the other.
If you really want to get rid of Exchange, you can. You just can’t expect to fork-lift replace it when the ecosystem that you’ve built up around it expects it to be there. That’d be like expecting to be able to run your car on biodiesel without doing a conversion first. If you don’t do the necessary legwork up front, you’re doomed to failure.
Thanks for your comments, guys.
We’ve used Zimbra for two years, so we’re pretty familiar with it. We also know some of the people there. We respect both the product and the people.
I agree that if we’d give up Salesforce, we’d have far better integration with Zimbra. We’d love to move to Sugar (we know those folks too).
Not to sound defeatist, but I’m afraid the die is cast and we’re moving to Exchange.
@qhartman: Your comments re the supposed integration between SFDC and Exchange are scary!
Thanks again – I’ll keep blog readers appraised of our progress.
Bob
Take a look at the Atmail product we develop – http://atmail.com/
A lightweight Exchange alternative for Linux, based on open-source components and without the big price tag of Exchange/Zimbra.
IMHO email is becoming more web-based and soon the WebUI will be able to do just a good as job of Outlook/desktop apps.
The EU has forced MS to open up smb, ad, AND mapi(which is what exchange uses). Postpath is a drop in replacement that recently got bought unfortunatly. If hte other open source projects would avail themselves of the source documentation that’s now available it would be much easier..:)
Did you consider using Citadel? http://www.citadel.org.
@Steve: We did not. In all honesty, Citadel had fallen off our radar. (I knew them fairly well at one point.)
In any case, in our current context, we have a hard req’t for “deep” Outlook integration – beyond just IMAP support.
The reason for this is that we are very reliant on the Salesforce.com-Outlook connector.
I’m not sure how well Citadel works in that use case?
But we will look further, not so much for internal use though (we have other interests as well).
Thanks for the tip!
@Ben: Similar story. Thanks as well. For good reason, it appears that the “Exchange-workalike” space is fairly rich!
Bob
Hi All
I discovered a product on the web, that says it can do all of the above, and runs on linux…
I downloaded the install etc…and before you know it this company had posted on its site that it had been bought by CISCO at some enormous price and the product was on hold…
go check it out http://www.postpath.com
Maybe it is their way of preventing an EXCHANGE killer form being released??
Thanks, Shawn.
We have followed Postpath for some time.
Postpath was broadly available for some time prior to the Cisco acquisition. It achieved some traction, but never fully “crossed the chasm” into mainstream adoption.
I think that there are several reasons for this, but they are irrelevant now given the Cisco acquisition and recent economic developments.
Google Apps is what our business has used for e-mail since Jan 07 , we have been very happy with it and the cost is just right ( free ) , I have turned several other SMB’s on to it as well.
If Exchange Server compatibility is important, you can consider Zarafa (http://zarafa.com/) as this is an Open Source Exchange replacement. If you are seeking an Open Source and in-house version of Google Docs, check out OpenGoo (http://www.opengoo.org). Hope this helps….
Kerio, not free but much less expensve, should fit the bill nicely.
Have you checked out Kerio?
Thanks for all the comments and suggestions.
We have not tried Kerio, but it looks interesting.
Bob
So…I understand that (unfortunately) Zimbra isn’t a perfect product for you. I’d like to encourage you to consider offering it to your customers. Untangle paired with Zimbra would be a fantastic solution that would provide great value to your current and future customers, and I’d wager that this partnership would help drive adoption for both of your products. I’m a happy Zimbra professional user/admin, and I’d jump all over such an integration (and be promoting the snot out of such a thing). Just food for thought…
The product is excellent, and very easy to deploy thanks untangle team.
In our company at the end we find a compromise solution. It’s called DaviCal. It’s a light opensource implementation for the caldav protocol.
The advantages are clear, it’s php, it’s simple and totally open source.
The drawbacks are that it’s a protocol supporte for apple so, it has full support from ical (apple’s outlook replacement), also thunderbird/lightning, but … no suport from outlook (at the moment at least).
The other thing lacking is some web interface to manage your calendars too.
Even though of that, I like it a lot, and it’s the missing piece i most of our setups since the customers tend to ask more and more for the calendar features …
Another vote for Kerio mail. It’s a full Exchange replacement. We had a few hiccups, but no more than Microsoft or open source products. The price was even better.
I use the open source free version of Zimbra and it didn’t jive well with me (pay extra to back it up or archive, what?).
Thanks for the comments and the suggestions on KERIO and DAVICAL.
We liker them on first blush, and we will look into these further – possibly leading to productization.
BTW, the Untangle Team uses about equal numbers of Windows, Mac OSX, and Linux desktops. So open. cross-platform tools are a must, even internally.
Thanks again.
Davical was the perfect solution for us…. until stumbling upon its (apparent) main deficiency of having trouble with shared calendars that only allow read-only access. Lightning shows the dreaded yellow exclamation point on these calendars, and won’t show any of its events. The workaround I had to use was to allow everyone administrative rights on ALL the shared calendars, which defeats the purpose of it in the first place. Very disappointing. I have also received no response from the developer on the issue.
Anyway, great article and suggestions — I’ll be keeping an eye on it, and will post any new tidbits I stumble across.
–scott
@Scott: Thanks for the insight.
BTW, we have not yet had the bandwidth to investigate Kerio.
Bob
We have used Kerio MailServer for several years now, and have been very happy. Our office still has (and will continue to have) a sizable number of Macs mixed in with all of the PC’s. We find that Kerio works well with both platforms. On top of that, we have several iPhones, which work flawlessly with Kerio.
Perhaps you can give me some guidance though. We are looking at possibly implementing Salesforce. One of the questions our Mac users have is how well Entourage and Salesforce work together. Do you have any insights into this question?
Hi Jim,
Despite years of complaints, Entourage/SFDC integration is a mess (i.e., doesn’t exist).
Mac users must use web client or run virtualized Windows.
The latter works great, and Oracle/Sun Virtualbox is free & open!
Bob
I’m with Rusiianspy.
I’m a DIEHARD Untangle fan….
I’m a DIEHARD Zimbra fan….
Integration of the two would be absolutely fantastic. amazing. incredible. I would also promote the heck out of it (even more than I already do.) Regardless, I run both UT and Zimbra as VMs on XenServer for SMB.
Oh… and for the guy who is worried about backing up… Take a look at the open source project BackupPC. I have it installed on a server at my office where I backup over 15 of my client offices. All you need is to add SSH keys… AND xenserver, zimbra, and untangle ALL run on *nix.
I find that, with *unix and open source, there are almost always solid workarounds for paid extensions
CHEERS!!
Oh… and guys at UT…
Fight the good fight! Make sacrifices to stay away from micro$oft… The end will justify the means!
@Ben: Great comments! We are on your frequency, and we hope to combine email + backup with UT in 2010,
Full disclosure: we’re *late* with these capabilities. But we wanted to get the networking/security features nailed…
Thanks again for the comments and the support!
Bob
Thanks Bob,
I really took time looking at all the different open source backup solutions, and backuppc met all my needs. I couldnt stand seeing my clients pay $60-$100 for backup solutions like Mozy. It just makes sense for SMB! here’s my approach.
Order static IP. Build the server from parts ordered on Newegg. Who else would you rely on
. This is a money saver. No need for RAID. Eww. Lightning/Fire anyone? Install xenserver. Install Untangle with DHCP + DNS. Also install an Ubuntu 8.04 OS and install Zimbra on it (6 beta2 if you’re me
.
Then order yourself some wnr834bv2 routers. Why? Plenty of flash and ram, and have wireless N. And I get them for $40 a piece on newegg! Don’t get WRT54Gs or any variant. Install DDWRT on these babies. Then you’ve got yourself some enterprise routers…. yea baby! I usually turn off DHCP on these, make the WAN port a 5th switch port and enable them as Repeater Bridges. Amazing stuff! Look it up.
Of course, I add xenserver’s root SSH key to my backuppc server at my office so all the VMs and their configs are remotely backup up weekly. No extra expense on RAID, no worries about fire lightning or theft. And you can add a modest $30 to $50 a month as a service.
The last cool trick I have up my sleeve is this. Burn BARTPE (windows live CD) on a disc. Burn GPARTED. When installing a workstation, partition the hdd in two. for an 80gb hdd, C: partition might be 30gb NTFS and D: might be 50gb NTFS. Then install XP for example on C:. After install, load up BARTPE. Copy contents of Documents and Settings to D:. Then, open Computer Management in Admin Tools in Control Panel. Mount D: inside the “C:\Documents and Settings” folder. reboot. This tricks the system.
Why would we do this? Anyone ever heard of Returnil? Oh boy… you’re in for a treat. Look it up. Install it after updating every program. Make sure you turn off automatic updates. Then, Start > Run > “services.msc”. Disable Security Center. Turn on returnil.
Sysadmins… Never fear users f*ing up workstations again. Never fear viruses, spyware, trojans, or ANYTHING ever again. Best part is, because we partitioned the hdd as described, all user data from programs will remain saved. But Windows and Registry are protected.
I also use tightvnc server and CCleaner on each install for remote management. I got myself a nice Asus laptop and an iphone 3gs 32gb with unlimited data plan. I pair my laptop with my iphone via bluetooth and tether the internet connection. So while my iphone sits in my pocket, my laptop gets high speed internet from anywhere. It’s funny, I was sitting on the beach last week and a client called me. I tunneled a VNC connection to his desktop via SSH (putty) within 2 minutes of his phonecall. Thats the kind of service that makes a name for yourself
Sorry for the brevity, I speak great english I swear! I’m just tired and not sure why I went on that rant. But I intended it for smart admins who can read between the lines. I have tons of other techniques, and if you guys are interested I’ll do a nice writeup.
I’m 19 and I graduated High School about 5 weeks ago
. Not planning on going to college, I started my business Junior year and have grown it quite considerably. I’ve got law offices, insurance agencies and whatnot as clients…. But I’d like some advice from some seasoned guys in the industry as to what direction I should take, so please, if you’d like to chat let me know. I would really like to share ideas.
Oh, and shhhhh….. don’t tell AT&T I’m leeching an internet connection from my iPhone. I simply refuse to pay $50/month extra for a usb device. They can’t have my money!!!
Ben (the 19YO wonder),
Wow, I am IMPRESSED. Very well thought out approach.
Perhaps you should consider moving to CA…expect EM.
BTW, you write up your best practices, and we’ll put it on our home page – with your by-line and pic (if you like).
No kidding,
Bob
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